We know what we should do.

Sa Ivanka Popovic, a professor at the Faculty of Technology and Metallurgy and one of the initiators of the "ProGlas" Initiative, we are talking at a time when society is boiling with uncertainty. It is Tuesday morning, we are in her office, the sounds of whistles and vuvuzelas come from outside because the students are returning from twenty-four-hour blockades of Autokomanda. At the same time, the regime media announced that Serbian Prime Minister Miloš Vučević would resign, which turned out to be true a few hours later.

We will start the conversation with the speech of the President, the Prime Minister and the President of the Assembly, during which we heard some kind of call for dialogue, but we already had students beaten up in Novi Sad last night. So - is the baseball bat an invitation to dialogue?

"It seems to me that we are now entering a very sensitive and important phase of these protests, because there is an obvious unrest in the authorities", says Popović at the beginning of the interview with "Vreme": "It seems to me that it is unclear how and in what way to approach the resolution of the crisis, without jeopardizing the support of their loyal voters. So that whole performance in some of the strongest lineup shows that they take this situation very seriously."

"WEATHER" What can we conclude from this?, an evidently insincere call for dialogue?

photo: marija janković

IVANKA POPOVIC: I think the dialogue offer is too little and comes too late and in a way that is twisted into a threat. There is talk of possible pardons, while it is completely unclear - knowing how long judicial processes take in this country - that there will be any express proceedings at all. I don't know if Vučić is talking about some earlier actions, so the impression was that everything was a little sweet, a little threatening, so that everyone can find what suits them. However, it is already so worn, used and spent as a technique. I don't think it will produce results and will also indicate to his faithful voters that there is a certain weakness, which I believe is very disturbing to them, because how can anyone even dare to perceive them as weak? Because of this perception of them as weak and their reaction to it, I am afraid that there will be an escalation, because I think that they have now found themselves in a position that they are not used to being in and that this is unacceptable for them.

We also see, which I think has to be linked as very, very ugly, what happened in Novi Sad. On the same night when we have the Autocommando - where it is clear that no one will dare to make an incident in such a crowd - it is extremely cowardly and miserable that students are literally being hunted on the street by persons whose identity is not clear, except that they are some semi-criminal elements. They show cowardice, because they attack a small number of people, peaceful and unarmed. And they come with clubs and a whole arsenal of different weapons. Apart from being cowardly, I also see all these attacks as a misogynistic act. Because most of those batterers attack the girls first, although in that case there is an even greater possibility of injury and it is clear that there will be no form of defense or resistance from the victim. All this creates a very ugly picture, but it also establishes and confirms the established idea that we have about the people who founded the Serbian Progressive Party. So, the origin of all this is the Serbian Radical Party, and these are the methods known to it and to you.

Unfortunately, since the nineties, we have seen complete continuity in the way things are happening in Serbia. We have really come to a division in which this country is divided into those who believe that violence is a completely normal and regular way of solving problems, and that part of the public who completely rightly believes that violence cannot be a solution, but that institutions should do their job. Now we have a civilizational gap and I don't think there is any dilemma as to which side to side with.

Yesterday, Prime Minister Vučević was still calling the rectors of all universities, professor, deans, professors and authorized student representatives to come to the Government of Serbia for a dialogue whenever they want. It's as if they want to exterminate the student protest leaders at any cost. Do you share that impression and how can we explain to them what the plenum is and that this has no leader?

I think that they cannot understand that the students have no leader and that they conceived their gathering differently. But I also think that the question of what is an authorized student representative is raised. The elected student representatives are actually representatives of the student parliaments, which generally - with some exceptions - defend the government. They are certainly not the ones who should go to the negotiations. I especially want to praise those members of the student parliaments who stood by the students - that's really their job. But, unfortunately, there are too many who haven't. Here, I would like to highlight the example of Margareta Smiljanić, president of SKONUS, whose role could have been of key importance, and who is actually receiving the Svetosava Award. This is something that also creates the wrong image in society, and I am very sorry that young people are compromising themselves in this way, because after all, the future is in front of them, and they decided very early on approaches that I don't think are sustainable in society.

As for the rectors, I think that the mere presence of two rectors at the session of the Education Committee in the National Assembly showed what the university's position is. What was heard afterwards, i.e. what was the response of certain representatives of the government to their views, speaks of how in general the government treats all levels of education and that it fosters a particularly negative attitude, almost intolerance, towards higher education. And that invitation of the rector to some kind of dialogue is also pointless. Calling the dean is also unnecessary, for several reasons. First, rectors and deans stood by their students, but let's not forget: rectors and deans are not the ones who should negotiate over student demands. So, the students are the ones who are being negotiated with.

And are Vučić, Vučević and Ana Brnabić are the ones with whom the students should negotiate?

Of course they didn't. Everything is set upside down. Everything is freaky. First, the students were more than clear in their demands, so this in itself does not require any negotiation. If their requirements were unclear, we could say: well, okay. But let me repeat - the requirements were more than clear. So, who are the people who should be interlocutors? These are the representatives of the judicial authorities, the prosecutor's office at different levels, and when there has already been a crisis like this in society, I really think that Mrs. Zagorka Dolovac could do it too. It has to react when we have such a tense situation in society and show that the system works. But the students are right, the system is not working.

On Friday we had a general strike. Some even used the expression "dress rehearsal of the general strike". What was that?? Demonstration exercise of what citizens can do or something else?

I think it was really a demonstrative exercise, especially considering that a serious general strike requires a certain preparation, an announcement... A general strike is not a guerilla act. A general strike is a very serious work stoppage that affects all segments of society and requires coordination with all factors representing all employees in society. I am not saying that a longer general strike will not happen, because I think we are heading in that direction. I see this on Friday as an invitation to find out how much people are ready to engage. On that note, Friday's general strike was very, very successful. We saw that a large number of people who might not have been expected to be willing to support the students, make that small sacrifice and give up their income that day to support the students.

I think that's essential when we're talking about letting go of fear and that we're all in this together. For this reason, the term "dress rehearsal for a general strike" is the best name for this event. He encouraged us all and showed that there is a will to change the circumstances in which we live and to finally push this to the end.

At the moment we are talking, outside we hear students arriving from Autokomanda, regime media announce that Miloš Vučević could stand for the post of prime minister, and the day before we heard the announcement of the reconstruction of the government. The demands of the students are such that, even if Vučić and Vučević and Brnabić resign, seems that they would still not be fulfilled?

It seems to me that the requirements are still not met. In his speech, the president said that he did not have all the information either. To me, it's a 180-degree turn: the most informed man in this country suddenly has no information. It seems to me that it is about the willingness to sacrifice others for the sake of staying in power. And we have this kind of situation in the Assembly, with the majority that the Serbian Progressive Party has and which it got in a way that I would not discuss now. But we all know how many electoral irregularities there were, so that majority can certainly be disputed. The bottom line is that it does not matter who is in the Government and who is the Prime Minister. So, they can all resign and a new one can be brought in, that doesn't mean any turnaround. Vucevic's resignation is, in my opinion, an act that can perhaps impress those who support the ruling party, but - no one else.

You found yourself again under fire from the tabloids for using the phrase "radical scum". Namely, you were a live guest on the N1 program at the moment when student Sonja Ponjavić was run over. It is completely normal to be overwhelmed by emotions in the moment - therefore, You are in the studio., in the live program, information arrives that it happened. Would you repeat that phrase??

Well, you know that I try very hard to be restrained in my statements because I think that passions should not be inflamed. I don't think it's good for public discourse if we foster some kind of violent speech. On the other hand, if the circumstances were different, I'm not sure if I would have said that. But in the situation when I see that video for the first time, in which, I say again, we see that a man drives a car into an unprotected girl standing on the sidewalk. It's really… it just takes your breath away just looking at it. You know, from the depths comes a reaction that is related to everything that I have been watching and following for the last decades. I know what was the behavior of those who follow the principles of the Serbian Radical Party. On the other hand, it was sincere and for that reason I do not regret saying it.

But it's interesting that you talked about the driver of that car - to a man who was charged with aggravated attempted murder - and the regime tabloids and SNS officials twisted it to make it sound like you called all their supporters that. Did they actually expose themselves by doing so, who and what are they?

It seems to me that they are. Because why recognize yourself in an individual act? I did not define anyone more broadly. I think it was an oversight on their part that they got caught up in, but it's something I really can't control. If they recognize themselves in that, it says a lot more about them than it does about us.

When we are talking about the omissions on their part, since these protests started, the impression is that this government gives own goal after own goal. We had verbal attacks., The blockades started because a member of the Novi Beograd municipality council physically attacked the students of the Faculty of Dramatic Arts, then drawing the middle finger. And all of this comes from a political party that is fundamentally led by Vučić, a man we consider a master of propaganda, spin doctor. A sad, all of a sudden, own goal after own goal.

I was surprised by the government's inability to react to what is happening. And that is a big difference compared to how they controlled public life until now. It seems to me that it is because they let their emotions guide them. We see a lot of uncontrolled anger with them. The moves are so rash and ill-advised that it begs the question whether they are in line with the advice they are getting from their PR experts. I don't think they are coordinated, but I also assume that our president takes all this very personally. That's why he thinks it's necessary to personally make decisions about how to react. I cannot believe that this will lead to a constructive outcome.

And here it is, right as we speak in your office, we hear students returning from the twenty-four-hour blockade of Autokomanda. What the students showed us on Monday?

First, they showed dignity in their protest, that they are not afraid, but also that they are ready to go to the end. I believe that what happened in the night between Monday and Tuesday in Novi Sad will be a motive to continue, because every attack on male and female students only gives more strength to the protests. The key and first requirement is not being met - to prosecute those who attack students. On the contrary, the situation is worsening, there are more and more people who need to be prosecuted.

photo: marija janković

The Autokomanda blockade was really spectacular and I think it's something that will go around the world. Also what is very important: it is now clear that the students are opening the doors of their protests to the entire citizenry and that they are very aware that only together we can make certain changes in society and put pressure on the system to bring about that change.

The students were very clear about what and how. Now it is up to us to continue and enable what the students started to be presented, to bring it to the end together with them. So, be that as it may, we always come back to the fact that everything is up to us.

And considering that everything is up to us, on the same day we heard condemnation of the protest from both Richard Grenell and Maria Zakharova. Does it show us that this is authentically ours, spontaneous protest, despite the fact that the government claims that it is funded by the West, to students-the guards persistently insist that the Russian and EU flags be removed. Does it even matter where these protests are in the ideological sense??

These are not ideological protests. These are really protests that speak about the system and that the rule of law must begin to function. Students are not asking for anything that is outside the law and the Constitution of this country. In that sense, there is no ideological aspect, and the statements of Mr. Grenell and Mrs. Zakharova refute all the claims of the authorities that this was somehow imported from abroad. This is nobody's but ours, and that is the special value of what is happening. This is not a colored, imported or any other revolution, but an authentic aspiration of students and citizens of Serbia to bring about changes in our country. That's why I don't think we should pay too much attention to such statements. It is certain that there will be representatives of other countries, but they have their own interest and represent it through the statements they make. We have our authentic and national goal, which is to survive and enable a normal life. We know what we should do and we should stick to it.

The protests will have to end somehow. It is ungrateful to ask for any predictions. However, do you believe in students that they are able to come up with a good exit strategy when the time comes?

Of course, many are thinking about the exit strategy. And that is natural, because in the beginning there was a fear that the students might not have the strength to hold the protests longer. But we have seen the strength of the students and their persistence, which, we have to say, is fueled by incidents and physical attacks on them. To say the least, the incorrect behavior of the authorities and supporters of the authorities contributed to that persistence. This strengthened them, and they were also strengthened by the massive support of the citizens. Now they have continuity and the intention to continue. What I believe everyone wants, especially students, is for the system to work. That's why I believe that the exit solution they are looking for is related to legal mechanisms. This means that no one here is talking about any violent overthrow of power or any other illegal approach. In fact, only the government feeds such approaches, it applies such a solution through its own acts of violence.

As far as students and citizens are concerned, I know that everything will be done within the framework of the law. Unfortunately, I can't expect the government to behave that way either - I'm afraid that it will try to abuse laws and regulations, as it has done so far. They will try either through that fake referendum, or through calling for elections under unchanged electoral conditions or maybe even resorting to a state of emergency. But I think that these are all repressive ways that can only worsen the existing situation.

Therefore, you consider the call for elections under these election conditions to be a measure from the corpus of repressive methods? Vučić has so far, whenever a crisis arises, always reached for elections. And it is clear as day that it is now very important to resist the call for elections. If he does that, especially now, after Vučević's resignation, what happens next?

The resignation of the prime minister does not necessarily mean elections. If he has such a strong majority, Vucic can rotate the players like chess pieces, since he is a great chess player. But I really believe that we are in the process of abuse of elections in order to stay in power. It is repressive, there is no doubt about it. If the president is convinced of the popularity and legitimacy of his party, then there is no problem in holding fair, transparent and free elections. But he has to resort to various repressive measures and tricks. Therefore, it is clear that he does not believe that he has the majority and that he wants to abuse the law.

Anyone who wants to open their mind and look at what is happening here can see very clearly that we have a party that is not ready to hand over power. Every member of the government swears to uphold the laws and the Constitution, and all we see here is that all these officials are actively breaking the laws of our country.

So, if we talk about some patriotism, when we put them on one side and what the students do on the other, it is clear that the students are on the side of this country and its laws. I say again, it is so clear how far we have come that I believe that only with a large and massive response in the streets can we push things to the end. This will then lead to an adequate outcome, without going into the technical aspects of the exit strategy of the student protests.