Justice for politics

Place: Niš, City Municipality of Mediana, November 28, 2024.

Speakers: Jelena Milošević, Member of Parliament of the Freedom and Justice Party, Rastislav Dinić, Member of Parliament of the Green-Left Front, Predrag Cvetković, one of the founders of the Citizens' Group "Dr. Dragan Milić" and Pavle Cicvarić, student and activist. Moderator: Nedim Sejdinović, "Vremena" journalist

NEDIM SEJDINOVIĆ: Before we started the conversation, one councilor of Mediana said that public spaces in Serbia are closed for critical thinking, for any debate in which dissenters confront different points of view on social and political issues. In this regard, thanks to the City Municipality of Mediana, the only free municipality in the country, where it is possible to talk freely. Not only public institutions, but also many private spaces were closed for our tribunes in the past, certainly for other similar events as well. The owners were afraid to host us for the simple reason that they openly warned them that this would have certain consequences, such as visits from various inspection services: some who hosted us really had problems. I hope that this forum of ours is a symbolic step by which politics, public debate, returns to where it belongs: in institutions, in public space.

Our topic is politics, political parties, justice for politics. We have already held several debates on this topic. We will talk about the position of political parties, about the position of politics in our society, about the reasons why political parties are so unpopular, demonized in themselves, regardless of what they do and what ideological position they are in. But, of course, we will also talk about current political issues, about these turbulent times. We neither want nor can we avoid that.

Unfortunately, Dragan J. Milić, due to the lively discussion in the Niš City Assembly that is currently ongoing, could not participate in the forum, but Predrag Cvetković, one of the founders of the Citizens' Group "Dragan J. Milić" and the Movement for the Decentralization of Serbia ( ADJUSTMENT).

Pavle, you participated in some of our earlier forums on this topic. Has the attitude of citizens towards politics and political action changed in the meantime, in these more than a month of political turbulence?

PAVLE CICVARIC: When we talk about justice for politics, we can automatically say that it is in a very bad state in Serbia. We can certainly find the culprits for this in the current government, which has been trying for years to make the very term "politics" meaningless, to make the division of power into three branches meaningless, to establish the rule and complete dominance of one man who literally plays the role of pharaoh in ancient Egypt , a despot who has absolute power and control over the destinies and lives of the people around him. The attitude towards political parties is a topic that has been avoided for years, but as it seems to me, we have had certain developments in this spectrum in the past period, for which these debates, as well as current events, are to blame.

The way people look at the opposition parties was influenced by the constant negative campaign of the government and its media directed at the political parties. Of course, not only that. The situation among the opposition actors, the quarrels within that body, also influenced the negative attitude towards them. However, now we really need to praise a new level of opposition engagement, a new form of resistance by opposition MPs. They stepped out of their comfort zone and, to use that metaphor, stood on the police shield. This gesture - blocking the prosecution or any institution or courts - shows that they are ready to use alternative methods in the fight against the authorities. I think it can restore the trust of the citizens.

It is important to note that the protests that have taken place in the past few weeks due to the tragedy in Novi Sad have a somewhat different character than the previous ones. They are not centralized, so there is no single epicenter from where information arrives, from where actions are planned, but everything has a dispersive character. An important role is played by students, the youth of political parties, and politicians, as well as other self-organized citizens. I believe that this is an effective way of fighting against this government. A million fires on different sides. It seems to me that the government is not able to control the rebellion, that it is more confused than ever.

NEDIM SEJDINOVIĆ: Pavle said that opposition deputies, provincial deputies, and city councilors have shown a new quality these days - that they are ready to step out of their comfort zone. However, it may not be the first time, it also happened at the protests after the tragedy at the "Ribnikar" school. Even then, opposition MPs were in the front ranks. Why am I saying this? Because on social networks, whatever the opposition does, it is met with harsh criticism. Sometimes it seems that "influencers", when they can't do anything to the authorities, direct their anger exclusively towards the opposition. Let's say, if the opposition is at the head of the protest, why is it at the head of the protest, why is it taking over the protest. If not, why not, and so on. At the same time, it seems that the opposition makes decisions precisely by listening to social networks, and not, say, relevant public opinion surveys. Here, this is the key word for Jelena...

photo: Jelena Mrđa

JELENA MILOSEVIC: The entire opposition, both parliamentary and non-parliamentary, is a punching bag. The opposition has neither the leverage nor the resources to do much more than what it is doing now. Nevertheless, I am glad that the voters who support the opposition are different from the voters of the Serbian Progressive Party, that they are critical, that they have their own opinion. If we all thought the same, we would probably be in SNS, fortunately that is not the case. Disagreement within the opposition seems rude to citizens, it seems to be arguing, but you know, in that opposition there are 10-11 parties, we have anarchists, there are liberals, leftists, rightists, and it is logical that we have different positions on many issues. However, in key moments, the opposition showed maturity, managed to find the smallest common ground and be unique. We have shown that unity many times.

I will remind you that "Serbia against violence" was the largest coalition after DOS. I will remind you of the unity in the fight against lithium exploitation. I will remind you of the latest events, where the entire opposition stood on the line of the regime. Therefore, it is normal that there are disagreements, and not everyone in a family thinks the same.

It is very ungrateful to talk about justice for politics, because what we are living is not politics. There is no politics here. What kind of survey of public opinion when the police beat a seventy-four-year-old man in Novi Sad, a part of his body was amputated. You cannot now research public opinion and make a decision based on that. Things just happen that require a quick reaction. So, there is no book by which the opposition can make decisions in this situation. We are faced with a fait accompli. Sometimes these decisions are better, sometimes worse, but we are also human beings. So we make mistakes, and I think that's normal. Especially if we take into account the circumstances in which we operate, this is not politics but a struggle for survival.

Our job is to be in Novi Sad, to block the court building and the prosecutor's office. My job was not to give the cop a shield. It is simply a human duty. Some people voted for us so they wouldn't be the ones going to the shield. So, the job of the opposition is to stand in front of the citizens who voted for it.

Some say the police are just doing their job. With all due respect, it is not the police's job to kick MPs. At the same time, we did not harm the court or the prosecution for a single moment. No one was threatened, neither human life, nor health, nor property. Symbolically, we stood in front of a building that has not been working for 12 years. It is not the only building that is not working, but at that moment it was the epicenter of the events. And then they arrest Vesić as sport fishermen. They caught him, kissed him and here he is already on the loose.

NEDIM SEJDINOVIĆ: When we talk about justice for politics, we are talking about justice for political parties, political organization and, ultimately, about justice for the opposition. It is true that there is no politics where there is no public debate, that is clear. How can citizens understand that opposition political parties are necessary in the fight against this regime? Rastislav, you were a civil activist, and now you have become a party functionary. Did you feel that because of joining the party, your status among friends, citizens, acquaintances - changed, that you suddenly became a different being in their eyes?

RASTISLAV DINIĆ: Yes, yes, of course. I really felt what you mentioned, and that's because of what the previous speakers talked about, but also what you described best in your opening speech. There is indeed a big stigma when it comes to political parties. It surprised me a lot. My comrades in the Green-Left Front and I crossed the road from citizens to party activists, and there was a reason for such a thing. We have seen that some things simply cannot be done in the format of civic activism. For some things it is necessary to have the right tools. Political parties are a tool of political struggle. It is completely unbelievable that we refuse to use the tool that most effectively does a job.

Of course, the government tried in a thousand ways to create revulsion among citizens towards this tool. There is no doubt that political parties before 2012 contributed to this, but I would not say that today the rational reasons for stigma are as strong as they were in the past. Irrationals prevail. What do I mean? By rational reasons, I mean the revulsion that citizens acquired in the post-October XNUMX period, and especially in the period immediately before the SNS came to power. At that time, it seemed that some of today's opposition parties, and some that practically no longer exist, that these parties were largely alienated, that they were separated from citizens and that they had become completely deaf to the demands coming from the public. It seemed to the citizens that they were ruled by some kind of estranged elite that no longer listens to anyone and leads in a direction of its own, that it is not guided by principles but by pragmatism or interest. However, I claim that the opposition party scene in Serbia today looks completely different, it is not the "old government". My party doesn't look like that. And from the experience I had with the coalition partners in Nis, their parties don't look like that either, mostly they are some completely new people.

You know, that famous cry - where are the new people?! Well, here they are. We now have an opposition composed of new people. So, my party is led by people who have never been in any party before, nor have they ever been in power. My board is led by people who have never been in any party, nor have they ever been in power. I myself have never been in any other party, nor have I ever been in power. And I find it very strange when I hear that citizens have lost confidence in parties in general, because my party was formed only last year. So when did they lose faith in her? Other current opposition parties are not much older either. The SSP is a bit older, the NPS was created around the same time as us. The DS is an older, traditional party, but it went through major internal cleansing and reforms, so it is no longer the same party. So, I would say that there really is a great irrational resistance to the parties, and that without overcoming that resistance, it will not be possible to achieve political changes.

There is only one thing I would have to disagree with Jelena, but it seems to be a matter of terminology. At one point, she said that there is no politics here, and then how it is the job of us MPs to be in the front lines of the fight when standing in front of the cordon, when institutions are blocked, and so on. And if that is our task, then obviously some kind of politics still exists. Politics also exist in authoritarian political systems. When Jelena said that there is no politics, it seems to me that she wanted to say that there is no normal politics, normal parliamentary politics, that it is blocked, that it is blocked in a certain sense. I agree with that.

NEDIM SEJDINOVIĆ: Professor Cvetković, your group of citizens is slowly growing into a movement, into a political party. What is it that will make you different from existing political parties? Will you be just another political party on the scene that will merge into the existing opposition, and you will survive everything that opposition parties survive - mistrust in politics, politicians, and so on? I'm thinking of the story that "everyone is the same", which is a folklore commonplace here.

photo: Jelena Mrđa

PREDRAG CVETKOVIĆ: Many will say that the opposition political parties in Serbia are focused on different goals, and that the direction in which they will go is not entirely clear to them, and that this is the reason why they cannot give adequate answers to political challenges in the right way. This situation is a consequence of the fact that even before 2012, they were not sure in which direction they would go. We have to see what is the cause and what are the effects. I don't remember that in 2010 or 2011 there was a clear attitude of these parties towards the key issues of the country - the West, the East, NATO, Russia, Kosovo... As a movement that is in the making, we will definitely differ in that respect.

The group of citizens "Dragan J. Milić" is the result of a provoked set of circumstances. People with serious professional and personal integrity - and integrity costs money, it is built over time and tested - have realized that they do not like where they live at all, and they want to change it. They believed that they could not do this through the existing political parties, which are conservative structures. I can say this with full right, because I was a member of the DS for 25 years. I will not say anything bad about that party, it shaped me in many ways. I left her when I saw that I no longer had anything to give her, she simply lived her history through me, in a bad or good way, others will judge that. But I am a political being, I have always been interested in politics. Just as Dragan Milić has always been interested in politics, on March 9, 1991, he was at a fountain in Belgrade, on October 5, he was in Belgrade, so he is a man who is interested in politics, and people like him realized that after certain years their own integrity, recognition in the public, they can materialize into political capital that will enable them to change the society in which they live.

The easiest thing was to try it at the bar first. People know us, we know people. We know the system, we have recognition as capital. We had no other capital. We didn't have flags in the campaign, we didn't hand out flyers on the street, our campaign was a capitalization of Milić's obvious recognition and refined, God-given political talent, which is to articulate in the right way what people think. We financed the campaign ourselves, from personal funds. Used social networks.

We were accused of populism during the campaign. But you can call the same thing one way, produce one emotion, and when you call it another name, it will produce a completely different effect. When you say populism, it's pejorative. So you buy the lowest feelings, passions and thus you have the majority. But when you say democracy, then everyone applauds. We managed to reach 25 percent of the votes in Niš without coalition partners, using some populist, others democratic methods. Is that a lot? For us it is, we didn't expect it.

We had, and I think we still have, a problem to prove our opposition identity. It is a serious problem that we are facing. It seems that every morning we should give a kilo of blood to prove that we are the opposition. As such, we are stigmatized not only by the ruling party, but also by the opposition. It is a political struggle, I can even consider it legitimate, but I cannot say that I agree with it.

What begs the question is what after all. We founded PODES, at the national level, it is a reflection of what we have been doing, tested at the level of the city of Niš. Currently, it is a dynamic process, many citizen movements are joining us, there will be challenges to create an organization that is efficient. I believe that we will succeed, and that this movement will be recognizable.

NEDIM SEJDINOVIĆ: Dragan Milić said that he supports citizens' protests, but not street and traffic blockades. After the elections in Niš, he was also against the civil uprising on the street. Is what you tested in Nis and what you want to test at the state level an attempt to find some kind of third way, between the current opposition and the government? Here is an example from neighboring Hungary, which has a not so terrible but similar regime to ours. A politician named Peter Magjar appeared, who chose the third time and who is a very sharp oppositionist, but he keeps a strong distance from the opposition as well. In a very short period of time, he achieved great popularity. Is that something you are thinking about?

PREDRAG CVETKOVIĆ: If someone had told me a year ago that I was on the third road, I would have taken that as an insult. Not now. I speak only for myself. Just as there are many people who are completely against the SNS government, there are also a large number of them who see in today's opposition parties - and I don't like it - all the evil of this world. These are, for example, two thousand people who lost their jobs, there were many unfortunate moves after October 5. People were fired, prosecuted, not in such a drastic way as it is done today, but I'm telling you how things really are, what their perception is.

Serbia is a deeply divided society, Niš is a deeply divided city. You cannot attract people only by telling them how they are wrong, how they are led this way or that way. That is not the path to success. There are many people who were passionate voters of the Democratic Party, Vojislav Koštunica or the Civic Alliance of Serbia, people who today have their own jobs, their own families, their own concerns, businesses, they struggle, but they are bothered by things that both the government and the opposition do. We don't want to make any compromises in values ​​and principles, Jelena and I will always agree on all those important things. But perhaps we differ in the methodology of how to fight for them to become dominant in the whole country.

NEDIM SEJDINOVIĆ: "Protests yes - blockades no" means that you believe that the continuation of the struggle requires a combination of peaceful civil marches and institutional struggle?

PREDRAG CVETKOVIĆ: The answer is yes. Politics also works at the level of gestures, symbols, that way you send a message. The fact that we are against blockades is our gesture, our symbol for which we are politically responsible and bear the weight of the decision. How will citizens see it? It is a democratic issue.

photo: Jelena Mrđa

NEDIM SEJDINOVIĆ: Rastislav, according to the latest events, does it seem to you that the regime has taken off its gloves or will it continue to play the "hot-cold" game, attack a little, threaten, use violence, and then retreat a little?

RASTISLAV DINIĆ: I'm not sure. To a large extent, it depends on our and the reaction of the citizens. I am sure of that.

But it seems to me that just now we have heard the kind of stigmatization of the opposition parties that really angers me. Here, I was never a member of the DS, no one from the leadership of my party was a member of the DS, nor was he part of the regime that implemented the transition, privatization. We are a left-wing party and we strongly condemn the way in which the privatizations were carried out after October 5, and even more so in the way they were carried out after 2012. And now suddenly, just because we are a party, we are responsible for what the DS did, and the people who were in DS all that time - I don't mean Mr. Cvetković, he was an ordinary member - are not responsible. You see, it's a paradox.

Another thing, Cvetković sketched what the PODES movement's political tactics look like. I think it is a very cleverly thought out strategy and I think it is useful to a good extent not only for your movement but also for the citizens of Serbia, for the whole project of liberating Serbia from progressive usurpation. It is good that there is someone who will address the voters that you described well, namely the disillusioned SNS voters or abstainers who stay away from the opposition. I think that in this sense it is good that a movement like yours exists.

However, I will use a metaphor: the fight against the progressive regime is like floating in a small boat in a stormy sea, where the waves are constantly coming at you, and if you go directly to the wave, it will capsize you, and you will drown. And then you have to constantly think of a way not to sink. The waves are not determined by you, but by the regime. The regime is so powerful that it determines everything. The rules of the game, which will be discussed today, control almost all media. It seems to me that your movement has found a very skillful way to surf that wave, but there is a difference between surfing and adding power to those waves. When Dr. Milić publicly condemns the blockades, and with one very unconvincing argument, saying that it is a restriction of the right to freedom of movement of citizens, he adds strength to the waves that threaten to sink not only the opposition but the whole of Serbia. If his argument were correct, no protest, no act of civil disobedience, would ever be justified. When you join the stigmatization of political parties, you are not only surfing that wave, but you are adding one cup, adding one jug to that wave that will submerge the earth. I think you should surf a little more carefully and nuance your performances. This is a very important thing, because we are on the same task. OK, even if we differ on tactical approaches, there is room for both approaches, but it is important not to trip each other up.

PREDRAG CVETKOVIĆ: In the Citizens Group "Dragan J. Milić" there is no one who was a high official of either DS or any other party. As for whether or not we add a glass of water, the picture is in the eye of the beholder, it is a matter of political judgement.

NEDIM SEJDINOVIĆ: Jelena, do you think that the regime has taken off its gloves and that we are expecting even greater turbulence than the current ones? And what will be the opposition's response to that?

JELENA MILOSEVIC: It would be easier for me if you asked me to bring democracy to Serbia on a pink unicorn than to answer the question of what the opposition will do. That's what I say all the time. Throughout its short existence, the SSP has tried different approaches. We had a period when we only dealt with corruption, then we had a period when we reached the peak dealing with corruption, so we went for alternatives, which is that we offered solutions and tried to be as constructive as possible. It did not bring results. Now we have a completely different extreme, together with other colleagues from the opposition we stand in the front row in front of those famous shields. No one can convince me that all that is happening is politics, politics is something completely different. The regime creates an atmosphere that is abnormal.

As for the response of the opposition, we do not know what the regime will do. I deeply believe that the regime is in crisis, that it is having a hard time coping with all these protests that are raging in Serbia. Sending provocateurs while being silent for 15 minutes is below every level, even progressive. We don't know what their next step is, I expect it to get worse. I think that the repression will be more and more, and we can see that from the crazy statements of our pharaoh, the leader, the rating-effendi, who speaks several times a day, either on Instagram or on national television. That man is saying "something", and you can see that he has no answer. The progressive phalanxes, the praetorian guard, are not a good answer, because they will be countered. Each of their actions, while they make such actions, will have a fierce reaction, not only from the opposition, but also from citizens who are not involved in politics. We have reached a stage when my neighbor, who has never been interested in politics, says - how much longer! She will not come to power, the woman wants to live normally. That's the bottom line.

Now I would ask both of my colleagues to go back to 2000. Pavle and I were minors at the time and we are really tired of talking about what used to be. This is what SNS deals with, little by little they withdraw what was two thousand. When people lost their jobs, I was 11-12 years old. As for political parties, I deeply believe that this society needs Pavle Cicvarić, Rastislav Dinić, and Predrag Cvetković. Why? Because people are different, some will follow Paul because his activism is something people believe in. Some for Rastislav, because his ideology, his politics are what are close to them. Some people will follow Pepi Cvetkovic because they think his path is the right one. Whether someone is surfing there now or not, that can be discussed, but it is very important that in these moments everything that is declared as oppositional - shows unity.

NEDIM SEJDINOVIĆ: Pavle, is the repression of the regime an indicator of its weakness, that it wants to send a message of force because it is weak, or is it an old tactic from "The Art of War": to always confuse the opponent. If you're on the left, let him think you're on the right, if you go on the attack, let him think you're on the defensive: confusing or what was called in the 90s - making sense. If the repression increases, will it, as Jelena says, only wake up more citizens or will it demobilize them? What is your opinion?

PAVLE CICVARIC: It is often heard in public: the more violence, the more repression, the closer the regime is to an end. I would go slowly with that statement, because it doesn't have to mean anything, because we are not aware of the limits to which this repression can go, and we do not know if the regime is close to the end, no matter how strong it is. The goal of arrest, attack, are their ways of fighting, and the goal is to intimidate each other. To discourage us from going out into the street. In general, the bad message that is sent to the public is that the police are great, that the police are wonderful, that everything is fine in the police, that it is not at all scary that someone arrests us. I think it is much more productive and a much stronger message to tell people that it is normal for fear to exist, that you should not hide your fear, but that you should act despite it. People are still on the street despite the fact that they are scaring us, beating us, kicking, and kicking MPs, and that is very good news.

I would just like to go back to the previous topic. We have a political chameleon in front of us. Is SNS a left-wing party? Well, it can be according to some parameters, according to some social policies, maybe it can. Is it right-wing? It can be special. But she is neither. She's a chameleon who will do whatever it takes just to keep the ratings up. In that situation, talking to a chameleon about whether my policy is pro-market or whether the state should have more influence in one sphere and less in another is completely pointless. Maybe what we are living is politics, but if it is, then it is the most primitive possible form of politics. In such a situation there is no place to talk about finesse. What is needed now is for the opposition electorate, MPs, citizens' groups, and everyone else to unite into one large critical mass.

Over the past years, we could see various groups and layers of citizens protesting against Rio Tinto, against pollution, against this or that, for this or that. However, all these problems should be connected into one whole and their epicenter should be detected. And the epicenter is the government of Aleksandar Vučić. The snake cannot be caught because it can be poisonous, but if it is already caught, it is not the smartest thing to catch it by the tail, but by the head. That's what the proverb says. To catch the snake by the head is to identify what the problem is.