There is a huge list of public figures who progressive regime and its leader cannot organically bear. In a tough competition for the position of one of the most hated, a professor of sociology at the Faculty of Philosophy in Belgrade won Jovo Bakić. Not only because he is a long-term sharp critic of the government with knowledge of how authoritarian and totalitarian systems work and what their weak points are, but also because of his specific and unconventional performance. He is often without a hair on his tongue, and hardly any citizen of this country, regardless of which side of the river he is from, does not know that Bakić is the author of readily accepted terms such as "cooking beef", "stewing", "nepomenik", and a sentence that is somewhat already, but intends to become fully prophetic: the citizens will chase the "regimes" in the streets at the end of the story. Often the target of both the ruler and the media under his control and other subscribers to the government. He has already learned to live with threats.
At the beginning of the conversation, we try to briefly summarize the past ten and a half months of student and civil rebellion, where we started, and how far we have come.
"Our society has been in very serious, decades-long problems, ever since the introduction of false multipartyism. For the last 13 years, we have witnessed the metastases of the disease of the political system as a generator of social ills. After 2012, the citizens were first confused, and then fell into long-term apathy - it took time for them to realize that organized crime had hijacked and captured the state, and that the numerous tragedies that are happening to us are not a coincidence, but the logical outcome of that fact. They realized that at the top of the state we have an extremely authoritarian and mentally unstable person who has an unrealistic idea of his role in Serbian, European and world history and who himself, with his involvement in organized crime, as well as his unconstitutional desire to control everything, represents a social danger. railway works, hurrying the whole process, increasing the price of works and ultimately leading to the tragedy in Novi Sad. Death under the canopy could befall any of us. Therefore, people stood up to defend their lives and society, which was faced with the question of survival", says Jovo Bakić at the beginning of the interview for "Vreme".
"WEATHER" At the forefront of the protest are, inviolable, young people. Can it be said that they are, if they were not fully aware of it, literally felt that their future was being stolen from them? I'm talking about the beginnings of the protests..
JOVO BAKIĆ: It is no coincidence that students are at the forefront of the rebellion. They invest a lot of effort to graduate from relatively serious faculties - the University of Belgrade is still ranked quite high on European and world lists - and at the same time they see that this effort and the acquired knowledge are increasingly losing importance. Some others buy a degree, join the party and advance at a rapid pace. From that knowledge, for which there was more and more evidence over time, they started a protest. What is important is that the academic community joined them. Universities have finally become communities of students and their teachers again. It is also important that the shamelessly humiliated educators in primary and secondary education joined the movement. This battle thus turned into a struggle of science and education against incompetence and crime. At the same time, it is also the struggle of the academic community for its own and society's survival. Society cannot survive if it is run by uneducated people with bought diplomas. To them, selling their own dignity through corruption is like saying "good day". It legitimately produces tragedy after tragedy.
From those findings and the beginning of the fight, Where did we get to today?? Some say that all this reminds them of some distant round between two groggy boxers, who can barely stand on their feet. You have repeatedly said that the government is shaken and disoriented, but what is the real situation with the rebellion movement?
There is no doubt that the regime is corrupt. However, when it comes to the student movement, its actions are well thought out, persistent, and the determination to go to the end is very visible. Energy sometimes, quite understandably, temporarily weakens, but quickly, thanks to the stupidity of the regime, it is restored. Civic assemblies are also very important to maintain that energy. The regime, on the other hand, is completely compromised and is on the road of no return. This is best evidenced by the countless and all the more comical announcements of alleged victories over the so-called color revolution, as well as the miserable appearance of the unmemorial while announcing them.
Behind the fact that he is not allowed to call elections, there is a huge fear of losing freedom after them. When the regime leaders are investigated, they will be in a very unenviable situation. The last line of defense is the engagement of criminals. They copy Nazi Germany from the thirties of the last century or the 'black shirts' from fascist Italy. They don't hide it: their criminals also wear black clothes, symbolically. Opponents are called 'ustashas', and the color black was represented by ustashas. They are trying to scare the citizens. However, it will not succeed. This is not ordinary, but existential politics. If the regime were to win by chance, and I am convinced that it will not, we will simply lose the possibility to exist both as a society and as individuals. We will face a choice: either we will leave the country or we will become slaves of organized crime. There have been slaves of organized crime in our country for a long time, they are the ones who play decorum for the insane leader and the criminals around him for a pittance.
It seems that the "black shirts" are not so much defending the leader as defending themselves?
They defend both the leader and themselves. When the moment comes to examine their actions, most of them will have to stand before the court. We have seen that among them there are various municipal, city or republic officials. What a tragedy it is: as a public official, and because of the illegal actions in which you are involved by free will or stupidity, and because you know that you would never be in that position if the criteria were education and expertise - you dress in black, disguise yourself and physically attack citizens, along with the most hardened criminals.
What do you think about the dramatically increased repression, but also about the changes of people in the police and elsewhere, about the attacks on the judiciary, the regime's propaganda gone crazy, counter rallies? Is all this a sign of weakness or strength of the regime??
The regime does not know where it is hitting. This can be seen by, even by his standards, the frequent, public addresses of non-memorials. It can also be seen in the fact that he is executed and confused, and he often addresses citizens in a visibly intoxicated state. Self-control had never been his strong point, and now it was completely gone. The weakness is also reflected in the method of fighting against the mass student and civil movement. The method is called - monkey imitation. Students run, here they will run, students ride bicycles, here they will ride bicycles, students have bikers, here they will have bikers... They are unable to come up with anything original, they have been on the defensive for ten months, desperately fighting for survival. Their position is getting worse as time goes on. Not only on the political but also on the economic level. Salaries are late, budget funds are getting thinner. By the way, here too it can be seen that the state and organized crime live in symbiosis. On the one hand, the regime provides organized crime with lucrative jobs and extra profits, and on the other hand, it is obliged to return part of the money to the state when it needs it for salaries and pensions.
In one period, regime propaganda hesitated to call students by derogatory names. However, they have long since become "Ustasha","terrorists" and all that kind of stuff. Can this kind of propaganda produce results in the regime? "self defense"?
And there you can see the complete absence of ideas. The only original thing they came up with are the terms "blockader" and "lost". Because they are uninventive, they evoke the nineties. But only those with lower intelligence can believe that someone named Jovo is an Ustasa. Propaganda has faded, its effectiveness is incomparably lower than in the 90s, when some were just because Croats were called Ustashas. Now things have changed. The more mature society is, the more difficult it is to declare a Serb a Ustasha. It all speaks of the propaganda impasse in which the regime finds itself. His persuasiveness was never at a low.
photo: marija janković...
And increased repression? We saw what happened, for example, in Novi Sad ten days ago. Then, police shifts, attack on the judiciary...
All this is also a sign of weakness and paranoia. You no longer trust anyone, you suspect everyone. As soon as you increase the repression, it is a sign that your power of persuasion has decreased significantly. Every state policy has force as a last resort, but while it is powerful, it does not resort to force. The persuasive power is reduced to the unsuccessful attempts of mass poisoners of the spirit: "Pink", "Hepija", "Informer", in a twisted version and RTS. But fewer and fewer people believe them. This can even be seen in the IPSOS survey, which we know is close to the regime. Every day the regime becomes more and more exposed in its criminality and the feeble sanity of its leader.
You mentioned the media.. Whether, by that logic, the latest attack on this somewhat independent media, with the aim of disavowing them completely, also a sign of weakness?
Absolutely.
Some say that the regime has already started preparations "restraints" social networks, which he also recognizes as an enemy...
That is what they did in Nepal, so we have seen the outcome. Let the regime try to learn from it, I don't know what else to tell it.
Sometime in May, you stated that the Western media devote much less time to the protests in Serbia than they deserve. In the meantime, the situation has changed somewhat, and the messages coming from European politicians are much more resolute than before. Has there been a fundamental change in the EU's attitude towards Vučić?, as some claim?
There was no fundamental change, but there is still some progress. All this takes a long time. Their man in Serbia, to call him that, was successful for a long time in consolidating the stabilocracy. This is what they are interested in, and they put aside the state of affairs in the state, the institutions, the humiliating conditions the workers in Serbia work in, the difficult conditions independent media find themselves in. However, the last ten months show that he is no longer able to deliver stability. That is why at the end of the summer he strongly intensified the repression, with the idea of bringing things to an end by force. He caused, as expected, the opposite reaction. Now it is completely clear to him that the protests will continue. Western media and journalists now clearly see the authoritarian, naked repression of society, and those who value human dignity and freedom write about it. Those politicians who know the situation better, such as Irena Joveva, know that the situation is completely abnormal and that instability in Serbia is a threat to the entire environment. It is also clear to them that other interlocutors must be sought here. One should be honest and say that neither Western countries, nor Russia nor China, know who to talk to here but him. But they themselves are to blame because they exclusively supported him for 13 years and calmly watched him destroy every alternative. Now people to talk to will appear.
You should be aware that redefining the relationship of the EU towards a certain country is a complex process, since it involves a cumbersome decision-making system. In addition, there are also personal connections of the memorial with some European politicians. The regime did not only buy people in Serbia, but also outside. You had regime lobbyists in quite high positions in the EU.
You said that Vučić has successfully delivered stability so far. No, it's not just about stability, but also the interests of individual countries and their companies. You will surely agree with that, because you often mentioned it yourself. The other day, let's say, German expert Milan Nitsch said that there is nothing more to mining lithium.
Of course. Nepomenik sold everything he could. The authorities before him started the process, he accelerated it, strengthened it and brought it almost to the end. Almost the whole of Serbia has become an eldorado for multinational companies, which do not take into account the local population and the conditions in which they live. Neither is the regime after all. As if we are not worthy of having healthy air, healthy water, healthy food. Homolje is currently under attack from the Canadian company Dundee, which is looking for gold. I hope Nich is right, but there is still a possibility that the lithium mine will destroy the whole of western Serbia. Citizens are becoming more and more aware that they have to decide between living a healthy life or getting a job with slavish working conditions. Of course, all this is a complex story. There are strong interests in both the West and the East for this regime to survive, precisely because of the sell-off of resources.
If we include Kosovo in the story, the situation becomes even clearer. Radicals and progressives criticized Boris Tadić as the biggest traitor who sold Kosovo. However, during Tadić's time, the Serbs had self-government at least in the north of Kosovo, and now they have nothing. In this regard, the question remains as to who killed Oliver Ivanovic and on whose orders after the manhunt against him on Pink. In the end, we got to the point where Dacic and Nepomenik say that they were deceived in the negotiations regarding Kosovo. If you claim that you were cheated, it means that you are either bad politicians or that you are now lying or both, ie. that you are politicians pretending to be patriotic statesmen.
And will it even be possible to change the regime without some outside support??
The great powers have a favorable situation when it comes to the regime. We have seen that Putin unreservedly supports him, and Von der Leyen is not far from that either. Let's remember that church dignitaries lobbied Putin for this, defaming Serbia's youth and intelligence by using the regime's propaganda joke about the "colored revolution", which in Russian is called - which I like - "flowering revolution". It would be really nice if all this ended as a Serbian flower revolution.
The new government will have to redefine its relationship with the environment and review the status of certain mines. This is something that requires serious analysis and public debate. As for the great powers, they have a choice. Either a regime that is highly criminalized, which does not bother them, and which is unstable, which bothers them - or they will side with Serbia, where there is rule of law, democratic institutions, disagreement, public discussion, which looks at all sides of the world, but primarily cares about its own interest. Those who support the unmemorial in the critical hour will not be able to count on Serbia; those who support Serbia, respecting its legitimate interests, will have a devoted partner in it.
photo: marija janković...
Anyway, the new government will be in a very complex problem when it comes to external and internal affairs. I wouldn't put myself in their shoes.. They will inherit a country of broken institutions, broken society, crime that spanned the sky... You talked about sanctioning crime. Will it, even if how much-so much recovery, institutions to be able to deal with such an imposing crime in which so many people participate? Or we will have to apply the principles of transitional justice?
Probably yes. I think, however, that with the concerted action of the Ministries of Internal Affairs, Justice and Finance, using special units made up of the police and financial police, as well as experts in financial forensics, it would be possible to easily determine the flow of money in general, including the manner in which money was taken out of Serbia, that is, where that money should be returned to the country. Now, the problem is that there are always those who are perishable goods. Let's remember the story about the money in Cyprus, let's remember Mlađan Dinkić, who promised a lot and then suddenly became silent. He is now an associate of the regime. We have to be careful with this experience. It seems to me that there is a core of people who can start a serious confrontation with organized crime. I think they will not agree to be bribed by organized crime, regardless of the fact that they are the heads of criminal groups, along with some other oligarchs at the top of the government or close to the regime - by far the most powerful and richest in the country. This should also be taken into account: whoever is dangerous and incorruptible may also be liquidated. This is what we saw in Italy in the past decades. There, however, the judicial system has shown that it is possible to fight against criminal groups. They have been largely suppressed. In this sense, it is necessary to lay the foundations of a better judicial system, which is not easy at all. But if there is determination, organized crime can be dealt with, with the awareness that it can cost some people their lives. It is important that this struggle has broad social support, so that they are not victims in vain.
Of course, there is also a mechanism of lustration for people who did not commit criminal acts, but participated, say, in fooling the people, in manipulation, and so on.
Transitional justice sometimes foresees repentant witnesses. They appear most often in the process of establishing the truth: they receive immunity or amnesty on the condition that they publicly and fully expose major crimes, their own and the role of others in them.
There will probably be that too. But repentant witnesses cannot then continue with their businesses as if nothing had happened. Like, for example, Ljubiša Buha Chume back then. On the one hand, he was a protected witness, and on the other, he continued to deal with his affairs. It doesn't work that way.
photo: marija janković...
We return to current events. You mentioned that the West does not know who to talk to. According to your knowledge, how are things with the student list?? It is clear that the names were kept secret so that these people would not pass through the propaganda "warm rabbit", but it seems that we are still waiting too long for both the names and the program.
The minimum program principles already exist, and the program is being developed. As far as I know, the student list has actually been formed. My opinion is that the time has come to go public with the names of at least a dozen of those who will be at the top of the list. Those people could talk with representatives of various countries, but also communicate with the local public and citizens. It is true, he will be a target of the regime's propaganda, but that is something that goes into the term of service. Whoever accepted to be on the list must be ready for it. There are people who have never been in such a situation and they should be protected as much as possible, at least in this period. It's also good to see how many attacks stick to someone. I believe that many will not be accepted. You will have a hard time convincing most people that a proven patriot is an Ustashi, or that someone who lives modestly is a foreign mercenary.
There will certainly be some who are squeamish about some of the names that will be announced. In this respect, it may not be bad that there are two opposition lists in the elections, that is, that the opposition parties form their own. So if someone is squeamish about a name, let them vote for that other list. That may not be a bad thing, and for the sake of a more convincing victory over the regime. Unfortunately, there are still people who have not learned from the 13 years of the criminal regime that it must change regardless of the disgust we feel towards some individuals or parties.
You mentioned another opposition list. Are you suggesting that? - two anti-regime lists as the most effective solution that will enable a convincing victory?
The regime will certainly create its own opposition lists. Some from the old opposition will also participate in this. Two truly opposition lists, one student and one party - that could be a good solution, which would imply mutual non-aggression. So whoever does not want to vote for these should vote for those. The regime will certainly bring into play various friends of Russia, extreme and radical right-wingers in their own service, e.g. Dr. Nestorović, Vacić, as well as some friends of the USA like Dr. Milić, maybe some pseudo-leftists inclined to China, and probably some completely new faces, in an attempt to attract those who are scornful of the opponents of the regime. Of course, there are also former opposition members, among whom there are unreliable ones, but they will not be allowed to defect if the victory over the regime is convincing. In the end, it is not excluded that there will be people on the student list who can be blackmailed or bought, but even that will not be possible in the conditions of a convincing victory over the regime.
It seems that the political awareness of citizens has matured. In that case, two truly opposition lists would be an effective solution. If this is not the case, then a better solution is one list, this student list, which would be supported by truly opposition parties. Then it would be clear that everyone else who participates in the elections is in the service of the regime. But everything is a matter of agreement and examination of public opinion. The goal is clear - to win as convincingly as possible. If the victory is convincing, then overflight, that is, buying or blackmailing deputies from the regime and organized crime - will be difficult, so to speak, impossible. Then the application of the regime's, that is, criminal force against citizens will be completely exposed and the great powers will be in a situation to make a clear decision accordingly.
What after that??
The new government must be under the constant control of the public. This requires independent means of mass communication and vigilant citizens who do not let things pass them by. If there had been a more developed civic awareness, we had to chase away the unmemorial in 2015, after he "didn't give" Lončar and Gašić, since they were responsible for the death of seven people, because they wanted to take a picture with the saved child. We are at least ten years late, and that delay has a high price. Therefore, the problem is not that the SNS came to power, but that it was not driven out of power as soon as it first threatened the rights guaranteed by the constitution, and even the very lives of citizens.
