Deep pain and grave injustice

Under the heavy shadow of the mass murders of May 3 and 4, the life of all of us seemed to have turned in a different direction - more uncertain and terrible than ever before. In Belgrade, a minor boy at the "Vladislav Ribnikar" school, where he himself went, killed nine other students and their favorite friend from school security. The next day, in the villages of Malo Orašje near Smederevo and Dubon near Mladenovac, a young man who had just come of age killed nine young men and women, his neighbors, two of whom were minors. He wounded thirteen. At the same moment, darkness fell in Serbia, but even next to it, the massive deposits of lawlessness, crime and desolation of one society, this one of ours, were clearly visible.

If everything had not happened like that, the interlocutor of "Vremen" Dr. Tamara Džamonja Ignjatović, professor of psychology at the Faculty of Philosophy and the Faculty of Political Sciences of the University of Belgrade, would perhaps have talked about something else on this occasion. Probably, according to the moment, mostly about ProGlas, of which he is one of the initiators, about the role of intellectuals in social life and their engagement, about the importance of a critical attitude, about the fact that "we are all obliged to be political beings".

When she was elected president of the Association of Psychologists of Serbia two years ago, as she says, her first activity was to issue a press release, for which she received great support from her colleagues and a large number of new members of the Association, and in which she wrote, among other things: "In a society in which critical thinking is discouraged, education is devalued, pressure is intimidated, and conformity is encouraged, apathy, hopelessness and social anomie are strengthened. Psychologists have an obligation to act in accordance with the public interest and to react to phenomena that threaten the interests and rights of citizens".

Surely this time we would devote much more space to her involvement in organizing support and help for the vulnerable immediately after the tragedy in "Ribnikar", as well as to the volunteer work of psychologists and pedagogues from the Faculty of Philosophy who responded en masse to her call. Or how and with what problems did the Working Group for Mental Health Support, which was established by the Government after these murders, work in the beginning, and in that working group our interlocutor held the position of team coordinator on behalf of the Association of Psychologists. Or, what is even more current, how and why the newly elected executive board of the Society of Psychologists removed her from the position of team coordinator, for reasons not very clear to the general public, and not only that, but excluding her from the support team. However, we are not talking about all that today. Only, regarding the disagreements in the Association of Psychologists, Professor Džamonja Ignjatović told "Vreme": "For now, we have agreed that we do not agree, but we have agreed that we will continue to cooperate on all other issues, with the involvement of other bodies of the Association of Psychologists when the seriousness of the issues on which we do not agree requires it. Because we spent a lot of time and energy discussing it. Now we are focused on the future, many more professional tasks await us."

"WEATHER" In addition to being removed from the position of project coordinator on behalf of the Society of Psychologists and in addition to being excluded from the support team, you are actually still part of the Government's Mental Health Support Task Force. Today, in what capacity and on what task?

TAMARA DŽAMONJA IGNJATOVIĆ: I am still a member of the Working Group, as the president of the Society of Psychologists. The rest of the expert team of the Working Group for Mental Health Support within the project, after the tragic event in "Ribnikar", provide help to students, teachers and parents. Partly in the Children's Cultural Center, previously it was in "Dadovo", through a psychosocial counseling center for all those who seek help, which is implemented and coordinated by the Institute for Mental Health. The second part, the educational support of teachers in "Ribnikar", is managed by the team of the Society of Psychologists. As the President of the Society, I monitor all activities in his work through the reports they submit, but I do not interfere in the work of that team.

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However, as a member of the Working Group, I believe that there is still a lot of work to be done, so I have been involved in providing support to parents and their children who have symptoms or are at risk of developing post-traumatic stress disorder, and have not turned directly for help, in providing assistance to parents who lost their children, victims of injuries. Therefore, we felt it necessary to extend the help. And thanks to the recognition of those problems, we received support from the Working Group for the expansion of activities. Now I am working on it with fellow therapists who specialize in the prevention of post-traumatic stress disorder.

You went to Dubona and Malo Orasje, two villages, more precisely two mass crime execution sites. About life in those villages, about the burden these people carry, and half a year later we actually seem to know nothing.

The families in Dubona and Mali Orašje really remained out of focus, although contact with them was attempted earlier. Namely, colleagues from the Institute of Mental Health went to the field, talked to children who continued to go to school, but at that moment it was estimated that it was a closed environment that was not ready to accept that kind of help. Time has passed and now that we left again, thanks to the already established contact and trust established with them by Veran Matić, we talked openly about what they need, what we can offer, without any pressure, but without waiting for them to contact themselves. and seek help, they come to Belgrade, Mladenovac or Smederevo. We're just really willing to be there for them, in a way that works for them, and they've accepted that.

Just last week you visited these two villages.

Yes. It was the first contact where we had to see what they were ready to accept. Because in small communities, you know, there is a greater degree of stigma. The first belief that occurs in people who experience such a tragedy is that no one can help them bear such a loss. We really didn't present our help as something that would take away their grief over the loss of their children and the pain that it happened in such a way. But we can help them deal with that loss in a way that will make it all easier for them, so that they can live with it and find meaning even in such tragic circumstances. In meeting and talking with them, however, we were also faced with other big, difficult problems that they have, and exclusively psychological help is not enough. Those people are therefore additionally burdened with problems that must be solved on a concrete, practical level, those things would have to change - and that would mean a lot to them.

First of all, can you give us your general impression, what did you find when you went there?

In addition to feeling their unspeakable sadness, you also have a strong impression of their mistrust. I think we melted that part, the mistrust, a little and opened the door. We were there to answer all their questions - who we are, what we are, and why we came. We understood their mistrust as completely justified, normal, and when you understand and accept it, the mistrust gradually decreases, which is why we no longer have the right to let them down.

But that's only one part. Another huge problem is the injustice that has been added to their pain. There are various situations and moments that further hurt them, from the fact that, for example, people did not even bother to remember the names of their villages, over the fact that they talked about "Ribnikar" much more and in more detail, which left the impression that they their children are "less important", and all of this is compounded by the individual problems of each of those families. Therefore, each family in these two villages has a specific concern, a problem that can be solved with the help of the community and the state. It's just that so far a lot has remained unresolved, and it hasn't even reached those who need to hear it.

Can you give an example??

These are people who live from their physical work, some of them are worn out, sick. One father of the victim's child has a sick spine and cannot get health insurance. Because the money he paid for five years for the PIO fund within a private company was embezzled and now he has no proof that he paid that money. Now he has to pay not only that debt, but also the interest. Neither guilty nor liable, because someone in the company embezzled his money. The situation is now such that this man - who has already given almost 500.000 dinars to the PIO fund, which no one paid for those purposes - is charged by the PIO fund for a debt with interest of one and a half million dinars. The state did not write him off, even when new tragic circumstances are at stake. Due to the problem with his spine, he can hardly do the sheet metal work he used to do anymore, he cannot afford treatment because he does not have a health card, in fact he has to pay for everything himself.

About difficult, other parents also spoke about unfair circumstances?

Another pair of parents from Dubona lost both children. They live from agriculture. When they deliver their goods to someone, sometimes they never get paid for it. They simply have no way to pay for their work if someone who owes them is "above the law". That man is in a pre-infarction state and the first thing the doctor advised him was that he should not do physical work. But he tells us: "What am I going to do if I can't work, how can I live, and even when I work, they cheat me." In fact, they all live with a "built-in", learned acceptance that injustice is a part of this life. They say so themselves, they are reconciled with that: "We are used to injustice, that's how life is".

Does anyone care about them today, whether through financial assistance or otherwise?

In the beginning, the social service came and offered them 60.000 dinars each in one-time material assistance. Those people are at risk of health problems, they had the help of their children in those jobs, and now they are gone. They need monthly, regular help, not one-time help. Rather, it seems to them like alms that offends them.

They also received funds from a humanitarian fund, but it received only Dubona, which belongs to the municipality of Mladenovac, therefore, as a Belgrade municipality, and it did not receive Malo Orašje, which is about five kilometers away, because it belongs to Smederevo. Now imagine the injustice felt by those who received help, that they would rather share it than still feel the guilt that someone was deprived.

How developed are those villages, what kind of living conditions are we talking about?

These are difficult living conditions, there are no other facilities, places to gather. We went to Malo Orasje, where all the parents gathered in the center of culture, which looks like a neglected building, without heating, cold in every sense of the word, completely empty with some old school chairs. The only thing standing there in color, on the bare wall, is the banner of the Serbian Progressive Party.

Everything else is completely empty, bare, there is nothing. And those people, in all that pain, invite us to their house because it is more decent there. In Dubona, a woman, the mother of a victim, mixed three kinds of cakes to wait for us. These are scenes that are infinitely moving and poignant. Their gestures of goodwill are incredible.

We will have to refer here to an imposed division among the parents of all the children who suffered 3. in 4. maja, partly present in public speech, according to which the parents of the children who died in "Fishmonger" considered "privileged" in relation to parents from these two villages. Is that so, no matter how hard and strong that remark was?

Parents in "Ribnikar" only have more resources due to the fact that they are in the central city municipality, the access to institutions is more accessible to them, and they have a greater social influence. But it cannot be said that they are privileged compared to parents from Dubona and Mali Orašje. Such a comparison is simply not admissible considering the misfortune that everyone has experienced. That's why Veran Matić's fantastic gesture made it possible for the parents from "Ribnikar" to visit the parents of the injured children in these villages. That gesture of solidarity was very touching and poignant. Who can understand them better than those with whom they share the same fate. Having respect and compassion for other people's pain, in addition to your own, is the most humane gesture that sets an example for this society. Now parents from these places are planning to come to Belgrade.

Given the small communities in which they live, the same can be said for Dubona and Malo Orasje "house to house", how they cope on a psychological level with the burden of such a concentrated tragedy?

This crime affected not only those families but entire villages. They all know each other, they all know those children, they all socialized, many of them are relatives, therefore, entire villages are colored by that tragedy and it is felt even now, everything is quiet and empty. The only place where these young people could gather, and different generations of young people were always together and socialized there, is exactly that place of crime. They were one harmonious little community that seemed completely safe.

Do those families now feel abandoned by the wider social community?

Yes, they absolutely feel abandoned. Especially since such a tragedy was accompanied by a sense of injustice because no one actually tried hard enough to do something for them. Everyone has their own tragic story that is not comparable to the others, each story is a special personal story.

Did they tell you?, does anyone visit them today?

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Now, at this moment, no one visits them except Veran Matić. As I have already said, previously representatives of the Working Group, from the Institute for Mental Health, came to establish contact with them. Support was also organized in Smederevo and Mladenovac, in the schools attended by the victimized children in order to help their friends. After some time, it stopped because the school year ended, and then a space was designated in the local community where those who needed help could come. This meant that people from Dubona and Mali Orašje would have to travel to Mladenovac and Smederevo, so they didn't even come, and in these larger areas it might not have been sufficiently presented to the public, so that kind of support for which there was a willingness and the organization shut down.

From state structures, from the ministries, also no one comes or helps?

I only know, as they said, that they were offered that one-time help, as well as for the humanitarian organization that gave one donation. Something else needs to be said: it is not just about the families of the dead, there is another problem, there are also wounded children. In fact, many of them are directly affected by this crime. Two of the wounded children are constantly in the hospital. Three young people came to talk with us, while two wounded are lying in their houses. The two girls we talked to, who were seriously injured, are now slowly recovering, but the whole treatment process is a new traumatization for them.

What kind of relationship do the victims' families have with the killer's family?, given that they live in the same environment?

They don't want to see family members in their village because it constantly reminds them of the crime. Encounters with them disturb and hurt them again and again.

From the beginning, the locals said that the killer had been arrogant before, that not even the police could do anything to him. Do they believe in justice a little more today?, do they have more confidence in the system?

It is this key injustice that haunts them. Their perception of everything is that it is more to protect the murderer than to help them, that any punishment will be small and legally limited.

What is most difficult for them is that this accident could have been avoided if the violence that the killer had been exhibiting for a long time had been responded to in time instead of the institutions turning their heads.

What is your plan for the future?, how long and how often you will work with these families?

To begin with, it is encouraging that everyone was at that meeting, maybe only one family was not, everyone gave their contacts so we could call them and said they were ready to talk to us, which was the most important thing for us at this moment. I assume that once a week we will be able to hold discussions with each family that wants to. It is important to start with those who are the most motivated, because at the moment, no one really meets them.

Also, our task, and above all me who is in the Working Group, is to establish contact with someone from the authorities to whom we will be able to refer their practical problems that we, as psychologists, cannot solve. Because if they have other types of support and support, our psychological help will be much easier. And difficult, if our joint effort is canceled through daily confrontation with new injustices and new injuries.

It is also very important that they provide each other with great support and help, they go to the cemetery together almost every day. These are small communities and their mutual understanding and solidarity actually mean the most to them, but it is certainly not the only thing they need. I believe that it is not too late to show and prove that they are not forgotten. And not only that, but let's do everything in our power, both as a society and as individuals, to prevent this kind of tragedy from happening again. I believe in sincere civic solidarity and empathy, which was, after all, expressed through citizens' protests against violence. Our support for the creation of a society without violence was also expressed through ProGlas, which we signed as a group of citizens, non-partisan figures, and which already reaches close to 100.000 signatures. We must not allow ourselves to come to terms with injustices because that is how we will help these families the most.